Earlier this month Defiance co-stars Jaime Murray and Tony Curran, who play Stahma & Datak Tarr respectively, graciously spent 90mins on a highly informative conference-call with members of the press to answer in-depth questions about their Castithan characters, the show and more.
One of the first questions asked was what first attracted them to their individual roles? Curran revealed, “The first thing that attracted me was the script – the size and scale of it all and how challenging this would be, and also playing an alien and all that would entail. For me it all comes down to the characters. Having interesting characters that people can relate to is the most important thing. I was also attracted to playing someone from a different planetary system who’s actually a kid from the gutter as well. It’s an interesting character I wanted to explore, something like Sense and Sensibility, when someone from the gutter ends up marrying someone from the upper echelons of society.”
Jaime affirmed, “I agree. The Stahma/Datak relationship was very interesting and I felt as though there was a lot of room to play within that very complex marriage. But playing another species was also interesting to me because the wonderful thing about sci-fi is that it just skews perspectives. It offers actors a whole new, really fresh way of looking at things. I knew instinctively that in my quest to play an alien it would make me take a fresh look at what it means to be human. You have to make choices which are universal enough that the audience wants these different species to make it work because they’re somewhat recognizable. You don’t want to just play an animal, you want to play something which is human enough but different enough. I thought, “how am I going to make this woman different enough that people can think she’s an alien but similar enough that they’re not completely turned off by her and they can actually invest in the drama of these people and this family.” So we talked a lot about cultural and social things which are jarring and make you feel very uncomfortable and how to have fun with that. Some of those things are quite harmless, you know, and others are really horrendous. So in the second episode one of the fairly harmless ones was that creepy scene in the bathroom where I’m very scantily clad and hugging my grown up son. I think that’s super creepy. But you could go to a European country or an African country and, you know, nudity is handled in a completely different way. So that was kind of an interesting quirk that shows that you’re not in Kansas anymore, but then obviously in the second episode as well you see something far more disturbing and grotesque when Elah Bandik is strung up and tortured before the whole town because he’s shamed the Castithan people. So there’s elements where you can have fun with these differences and other areas where you can make valid, really important points which aren’t too far removed from what’s going on in other places in the world today. So I thought there was a lot of power and there was a lot of scope in playing these characters and I was really excited about that.”
Tony concurred, “The Tarrs are definitely not from Kansas, the Tarrs are from another planet. They’re weird and wonderful and their weirdness should definitely be odd but it should also be just different and interesting and intriguing enough to make people want to see more of them. I mean, how many eccentric wonderful, weird people do you look at and go “wow, he’s odd” or “she’s odd,” but then you go, “I’d like to see them again.” I think that’s what the Tarrs are like. As Jaime said, you want to make them relatable but at the same time we have to make them a little different.”
“I didn’t even want her to move like a human woman would,” confessed Murray. “The biggest challenge in playing Stahma is that doing so runs counter to my personal acting technique. My technique is to focus on the other actor and to read and respond to their behavior without censoring my impulses; that’s a very basic description of how I try to make it work on set. But in playing an alien I have to remember that my impulses are that of a human, so I’ll often portray the exact opposite of my own initial impulse. I have to think, “why would this alien species have the same hang-ups or hold their body in the same way as a human female would?” So you end up making choices that highlight their alien differences which is, of course, aided greatly by working with amazing makeup artists and costume designers and even the lighting which all serve to help elevate our scenes. One thing that I thought was interesting, as an actor, is I realized that we all wear masks and sometimes as an actor you kind of work out which mask your character is wearing when. Sometimes you’ll have a relationship that you can show where your character’s not wearing that mask but Stahma wears her mask all the time, even with Datak. It’s not that she doesn’t love him, obviously she does, but it was interesting for me as the season progressed, I felt as though there were times when the mask slipped, not completely, but I’m hoping that it will next season though.”
A dramatic element the Tarrs deal with, as a couple, is the fact that they come from decidedly different social strata. Jaime explained, “It’s really an interesting role to me because although I’m playing this woman who lives over thirty years in the future, I sometimes really felt like I was in a period piece because there are two things about the Castithans which are very similar to where we humans came from hundreds of years ago. That is that they come from a very patriarchal society. So, based on gender, Stahma is quite repressed and her job would really be what historians might’ve called a breeder and a bleeder. She would’ve been expected to be a good mother. However this is actually complicated by the fact that Stahma and Datak come from a society with a really strict caste system. Datak would almost have been an Untouchable. He would have been on the very lowest end of that kind of caste system. While Stahma would have been at the very top, almost like aristocracy or royalty. So they would never on their own planet have been together. But it’s a whole new world that they’re on now and in many ways the qualities that Datak had to employ to survive on Casti made him very powerful and strong in the new world of Defiance. It’s an interesting dynamic in their relationship, almost like a power struggle, because she’s more highly educated than him and maybe sees the longer game whereas he’s very shrewd and sharp and, though very intelligent, has lived on his instincts all his life. So together they’re an awesome combination but because of the fact that she’s a woman, she can’t really tell him what to do – not outright. She has to be very cunning and shrewd and go sideways about how she communicates ideas to him and suggests ways of dealing with situations and I think that he’s sometimes at the whim of his emotions more than Stahma. Stahma is very controlled and so she’s often counseling him to be more patient, to take more time, think of the long game and try to do it without injuring his pride.”
Curran confirms, “As the season progresses you’ll see so many interesting dynamics develop between a lot of the characters that are all so compelling. One we think is quite interesting is the fact of Stahma and Datak coming from another planet but also coming from very different ends of the spectrum within a very social sort of society that’s culturally very different. I think they’re both trying to reinvent themselves basically. Back on Casti, with its very patriarchal society, Stahma wouldn’t have had as much power like she has now that she wields in her very subtle manner with Datak. She would not be able to wield her cunning sort of ways as she’s doing in Defiance. And to Datak’s journey, I think he’s beginning to become a little wiser thanks to Stahma’s helping him keep his volatility and temperament in check. He’s a bit of a blunt instrument and she’s much more of a refined tool, if you like, but the both of them together are obviously quite a formidable couple.”
One might wonder if a part of Datak possibly resents Stahma’s subtle manipulations? “I think he admires Stahma and he knows that she’s smart,” Tony clarified. “I think he likes the subtle way she approaches him with her ideas and I don’t believe he sees it as manipulative. Stahma does it in a very suggestive, cat like way. She is manipulating Datak but she’s doing it for the betterment of the two of them and their drive to the top. She’s not manipulating him in a detrimental way – well not yet anyway. Sometimes Stahma needs to put her foot down and say, “Listen Datak, get a grip here or we’re going to lose what we’ve got.” So while Stahma has to sort of watch her step in many ways with how she gives her advice, I think Datak respects her and why she does what she does. I think it’s what makes their dynamic compelling. She gives him these good ideas but he doesn’t actually realize that these good ideas are coming not just from her ideology and her philosophy but also in an attempt to calm him down. I think Datak’s going to change and I think Stahma’s molding him and helping to fine tune him. He’s always got the sort of blunt instrument volatility there which is required in a town like Defiance, but that can only get you so far. I don’t know how far Datak would get without Stahma. I think Stahma’s arguably the smartest person in Defiance and hopefully she and Datak will one day be able to relate to each other as equals. Their relationship has so many possibilities.”
Jaime confided, “There’s a lot of hot air that comes out of Datak but there’s also so much vulnerability. There are scenes we’d be in where I’d just see him as a little boy and there were real moments where, as Stahma, I just wanted to take care of him. I just wanted to save him from himself. They are so much a part of each other. They only really exist as a part of each other, you know? So it’s very interesting to consider who they are as individuals. Usually, when Stahma counsels Datak it’s to fulfill their long-term aspirations. Datak’s good ideas are usually about how to win something in the moment. But sometimes the repercussions of those choices are not worth that win, what he’s actually winning is the satisfaction of his own ego. It’s that narcissistic fix. Stahma’s not a narcissist. She’s almost vampiric in her avaricious social climbing aspirations but she never needs to take credit. She never needs to be seen as the victor and she never needs to be right, whereas he needs all those things really badly and she plays on that in order to kind of achieve her means. I think he listens to her much more at the beginning of the season and then as it progresses he enjoys some success in the kind of social climbing that they’re both trying to achieve causing her control over him to actually lessen. He becomes more confident in his abilities and he thinks he doesn’t need her counsel quite so much. So there’s a real shift in power as the season goes on and they both end up in kind of new territory and they have to kind of find a new way of dealing with each other.”
What might become of them if they weren’t so cohesively united? Tony speculated, “Without having her around to kind of soothe and counsel him he might act even more rashly, more like a cornered rat. He’d likely revert back to how he was before they met. I think without her, yes, he could definitely fall back into his old ways and I think maybe the complete opposite of that is true for Stahma. Without him in her life she could start soaring – soaring far above him and going in a completely opposite direction because she’s so bloody smart. Then you would see a woman being able to – if she had the opportunity – wield her power without the help of a man, because she can stand alone and that would be very interesting for her. Whereas Datak might be more like a little boy, more like he was to begin with, saying “Where’s my other, better half?” Along the lines of “Where’s my Mommy?” Murray confirmed, “Yes, she might discover a new strength in new ways of being while he might revert back to old behaviors.”
Asked whether or not [showrunner] Kevin Murphy tells them tidbits about their characters’ futures, Curran conceded, “Kevin Murphy’s lovely in that regard. Obviously he’s a wonderfully talented writer-producer but he’ll also come up to me sometimes before a scene and whisper something in my ear that he hasn’t told Jaime so it can organically seep into a scene in ways that aren’t scripted, things that the other actors in the scene don’t know are coming. It helps keep it fresh. He’ll tell me something he’s going to write about Jaime’s character and I’ll be like, “Seriously?! Oh my God.” And I’m sure he does the same to Jaime as well about other characters. He’s told me some things recently that’re going to be really challenging, exciting and bracing for our characters to play in the near future and forward into Defiance‘s second season.”
Reflecting on her greatest joy in playing Stahma Tarr, Jaime offered a possible insight into her character’s future, “The unexpected delight in playing this alien is that it’s forced me to look at what it means to be human. There’s so much scope for this character. I feel as though Stahma doesn’t really know who she is. I don’t really think she has any real idea of who she is. I think she only knows who she is in terms of other people and I think it’s going to be really exciting for it to suddenly dawn on her, and it will start happening in this season, that she’s surrounded by free and emancipated women. And although she has power and although she is intelligent, she’s a bird in a gilded cage. She is so defined by the men in her life that I think it will be very interesting to see it dawn on her that there might be other ways of existing in this new world. Stahma really is an intriguing mix of power and vulnerability. She’s almost Machiavellian in the way that she behaves. But, you know, I often felt very vulnerable playing her. I felt very isolated. I felt very lonely because she doesn’t really let her mask slip with anyone. And if you’re constantly hiding behind a mask you’re not really truly connected. There’s a raw immediacy about Datak that I bet lets him sleep quite good at night whereas I bet Stahma doesn’t sleep so good. I think she might actually kind of realize how disconnected she is and she eventually might try to be brave and connect with somebody and that might be quite a profound feeling for her. Let’s see how that turns out.”
Throughout her career Jaime has often played scheming, duplicitous bad girls. She pondered on why she’s been so typecast, “Well I think that if you play one role like that and people enjoy it, then they just kind of see you in those roles. Also, I look so different in this role but I’ve wondered if there’s maybe something about my physiology, you know, my facial structure – I don’t know, but what I do know is that I really enjoy playing these roles. They’re very complex women dealing with very complex situations. The way I’ve always approached these roles is believing that even the worst person in the world, including Mussolini and Hitler, didn’t think that what they were doing was wrong. They could be committing the worst atrocities against humanity but they thought that they were validated and that they were doing the right thing, you know? People do what they think they have to do and they often do the thing they think is the only choice they have, or they’re making the best of a bad situation. So what’s really interesting, as an actor, is looking at what might have shaped that person, really getting to know that person and figuring out what brought that person to that place of making those horrendous choices. What brought them to that awful, skewed value system? Maybe that’s why I keep getting these roles, because I try not to judge the character as “bad” because you can’t play bad. If you play bad, you end up playing a cartoon or playing a caricature. So really you’ve got to be the best lawyer that you can possibly be for these characters.”
Elaborating further, Jaime shared her rationale in portraying a few past roles. “The way I approached playing Lila, on Dexter, was that she was a broken person. She was really looking for a connection that she’d never truly had in her life before, that’s why she was going to all those Narcotics Anonymous meetings. She was trying to feel emotions that she’d never felt before. When she found Dexter she saw his Dark Passenger straight away and related to it and suddenly felt a connection for the first time in her life. When that connection was withdrawn from her it made her go crazy. Her wounded inner-child just took over and she did some really, really awful things. On Ringer, Olivia was just one of those women that was really very competitive and started competing with men in an industry which was very male dominated. So instead of rising above it, she actually kind of became the worst type of aggressive man. She took all the worst traits of all the worst men that she’d ever worked with and kind of adopted the thinking that that was the only way to win. With H.G. Wells, on Warehouse 13, I started off as the archetypal baddy at the beginning, then I had this amazing arc whereby I kind of won over the team. Then in the next season I saved the team. So there’s a real chance for redemption in that role. You were given insight into what made her lose it, it was because she lost a child. I think that there’s a real charm to H.G. because you understand that she made horrible, horrible decisions but you were given some insight into her issue and why she might’ve made those choices. So, I love playing these characters because sometimes you can, as a female, be cast in roles which are really just layering or coloring the male hero’s role, you know, giving insight into his character and those roles can be fun to play but these female baddy roles are generally just so much more complex.”
Tony Curran has also breathed life into an impressive array of characters, from The Invisible Man (in The League of Extraordinary Gentlemen), to vampire lord Marcus in Underworld: Evolution, to Vincent van Gogh in one of the most critically acclaimed episodes of Doctor Who‘s fifty year run. From whom did he draw inspiration in portraying Datak Tarr? “There are many types of roles that actors play and for this one, which is obviously seen as aggressive in nature, I looked to classic Cagney movies like Angels with Dirty Faces and White Heat. I’ve always been a big James Cagney fan. He was a kid from the street as well. He was damaged. He was damaged goods. He had issues and the reason that he behaved the way he did, and was perceived to have the hard shell that he had, was because of his upbringing. His past shaped his future, and Datak’s past is definitely shaping his present and future. But to just sort of blow hot air and behave in an aggressive manner all the time would be very dull. I think it’s interesting to see, in episodes to come, how Stahma takes care of Datak because he is like a big kid in many ways and while he’s a strong character there are undoubtedly huge vulnerabilities in him. Actually, a lot of the characters in Defiance have skeletons in their closets and are trying to separate themselves from their pasts instead of facing the past and dealing with it.”
In Defiance‘s most recent episode we learned that Alak Tarr spins tunes for Raider Radio, a radio station residing at the top of the Gateway Arch. I asked Murray & Curran which songs they’d like Kevin Murphy to add to Alak’s playlist? “Oh, I love the music in our show. I can imagine something a little unsettling like Pearl Jam’s “Jeremy.” There’s some rage in all those Pearl Jam songs or, you know, maybe something kind of quirky like The Cure. A bit of Soundgarden or Nirvana would be apt” declared Jaime. “I love that Kevin’s brought old Earth vinyl into the show,” cheered Tony, “because that’s the first musical format that I remember. The first album that I bought was Stevie Wonder’s “Hotter than July.” It had “Master Blaster” on it and songs like that. I’ve always been a big fan of Motown and Diana Ross, also Adam and the Ants. Going forward I wouldn’t mind hearing some Public Enemy on Raider Radio. I think Jesse Rath is going to have a fun time suggesting things to Kevin because he’s such a sci-fi aficionado and he loves his music as well. He’s having such a blast playing Alak and having his own radio station.”
In concluding their time with reporters, the subject of assimilation came to the fore. Being a predominant factor in the town of Defiance, the pair expounded on their beliefs regarding whether or not true assimilation is possible, both in their show and in real life. “I would say that all societies need to evolve,” stated Murray, “it’s when people become entrenched in certain ways that you have a problem. It’s really interesting in that Stahma comes from the upper echelons of Castithan society and, in the second episode, you can tell that she believes what they’re doing to Elah in the town square is distasteful. Datak however, who really never got anything good from his own society, is the one holding on so tightly to those old traditions that did nothing for him. I thought that was a really interesting point that episode made which is that, generally, it’s the disenfranchised of any society that carry on doing damaging behaviors. And damaging behaviors, no matter where they come from, are damaging to everybody. When our child comes into that uncomfortable bathroom scene we talked about earlier, he’s dressed in his modern clothes – he just wants to be connected to and hang out with his generation. He doesn’t really see the other species particularly as “other.” For him it’s not about retaining who he is, you know? He just wants to evolve and there’s sort of these clashing generations and cultures all in that one scene, I think that the universal desire that human beings have is for connection. And as you look at immigration and moving forward, assimilation sounds, well it has connotations which could be really positive and sometimes can also really get people’s backs up. I just think that we need to look at ways of different cultures connecting with each other in authentic ways so that we don’t end up with disenfranchised people who want to do damage to our societies. And whether it’s the UK and the British people or the American people, they have to be prepared to evolve too. You know, you don’t want to stay the same. Who wants to stay the same? And then other cultures that come into a new place, they have to be willing to evolve as well and together we can create something new and we can create something better maybe.”
Curran expressed agreement, “I think that’s what the more optimistic, the more hopeful and progressive side of Defiance is trying to achieve, to get away from the sectarian nature of humanity. That mindset that says you stay over there because you’re a white middle class person and we’re black people over here, and Asians over here and whatever else over there, and we’re not going to integrate with each other because we get on better separately. I think in the sense of Defiance and in the sense of the world at large, people are traveling now to different countries for many different reasons, sometimes because of the lack of opportunity in their own countries and/or because of war. My wife was born in Saigon. She came over here in ’73 and she’s like Datak and Stahma in the sense of being a refugee, a displaced person who had to come to another country for opportunity. I think people are gonna find the political and cultural similarities between America and the planet today in Defiance to be very universally human, especially for a science fiction show that you might not think has that depth or clout or progressive sort of message to send out to people. I think it’s for anybody who comes from another country or society because they’re forced to do so. It’s about people being alienated within their societies wherever they come from. And I think that’s what Datak and Stahma and a lot of other characters in the show talk about and discuss. I think this show could go far in many ways because it’s holding a mirror up, like any good drama, it’s holding a mirror up to society and saying “this is what we are.” Perhaps you don’t like those bits, there’s also some good bits, but we can’t deny what we are. And the question is “what are we going to do about it?” Are we going to try to make it better or are we going to turn a blind eye to it and just go backwards? If we don’t learn from our past then our future can be very bleak.”
In tonight’s new episode, “Brothers In Arms,” an old war buddy of Nolan’s comes to Defiance in pursuit of an arms dealer who proves to be a dangerous threat. Make sure to catch the action @ 9/8c, part of Syfy’s Powerful Mondays lineup.
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