5. That’s right, I’m a Coward Too…
Just because we now know that Ben feels sufficient self-loathing for essentially using his daughter as a human shield doesn’t make the fact that he tried to poker face a cold blooded mercenary by telling him to ‘go ahead’and kill his daughter any easier on the mental taste-buds. Sure Ben was just horsing around, doing his thing — ultimately, he was putting his own freedom and safety before his daughters.
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It bothers me greatly that the Lost creators/writers would save Ben because of his popularity. It is even worse that they would attempt to redeem him of his "sins." I'm thinking that since Egyptian mythology (although in the end I believe the Island will prove to be Atlantis) seems to be a major background for the show's themes I'd do a little search on the aspect of forgiveness within that mythology. I found this:
"Meretseger was a goddess who struck fear into the hearts of the people of Waset, yet she was also a forgiving deity. Sin was not part of the Egyptian mindset – they followed ma'at, and any deviation from this was chaos, rather than sin. Yet Meretseger had the Egyptians naming their wrongdoings, and asking the goddess for forgiveness. This was a very unusual situation in ancient Egypt, the idea of repentance from sin. None of the other protective/vengeful deities had such an unusual impact on the thought pattern of the everyday Egyptian as did this one goddess. She was a goddess who protected and healed those who admitted their sins, and asked for her mercy. Fixed to the peak of one mountain, she watched over the people who worked in the necropolis of Waset. And when nobody worked in the necropolis, there was no longer a need for her protection, and so her worship faded as the people left to bury the dead in other areas of Egypt."
(http://www.thekeep.org/~kunoichi/kunoichi/themestream/meretseger.html)
I suppose this can be used to justify the writers' actions, in their view. But for me, saving Ben has ruined Lost. While I realize the show has had to make several adjustments because of its original inception and through its extension into a long-term series and then again to a shorter run, this is just too much.
Ben was a great villain. And we need villains like him to contrast with our heroes. But this humanist genuflection to the idea that since we are all flawed, we are all comparable to the greatest of villains is just ridiculous.
I'll stick with the show as long as I'm breathing, but for me it's like seeing that wristwatch in The Ten Commandments.
Ben's survival (for now) will always stick out as something not right with Lost.
Hate to break it to you, but moral relitavism and redemption have been a part of this show since the beginning. Even Hurley and the like can be accussed of complacency at the least.
Complacency and cowardice are two different things.
Not arguing the show's themes of relativism and redemption aren't there.
I am arguing that Ben is EVIL and was meant to die before the end of this season. The creators are keeping him on because of his popularity with sick, relativistic freaks that want him to continue.
Then there is the possibility that Emerson is as evil and sick and twisted as Ben and has somehow manipulated the creators to continue his character.
That's the ticket!
Give me a break. killing Ben would have been the stupidest move the writers could have done. Somuch of the story revolves around him. His Character drives the show. And just because he didn't get the death sentence doesn't mean he has been forgiven. Smokey or the Island wants Ben to help Locke. That is why he is alive.
No doubt they have used Ben to lengthen the series' middle. But he was meant to die in the original conception, and the ONLY reason he didn't die last night is his popularity with…
Tired of saying it I've said it so many times.
Ben Bad Bad Ben.
Don't forget he was riding in a Widmore ballon!
Don’t forget he was riding in a Widmore ballon!
Ok, I will admit that Ben is my favorite character and I believe he will come out as a good guy in the end. Now, people seem to forget that Kate, Sawyer, Jack, Michael, Charlie, Sayid, Sun, Mr. Eko, Ana Lucia, Juliet, even Locke are ALL MURDERERS too; however for some reason we can forgive them with no questions asked. Now, I am not saying that Ben has not done some baaaaad things in his life, but I am saying he should get more slack because every character in the show has done baaaaaad things in their lives and at least he has the plausible defense of "the greater good of the island," otherwise the Monster would have judged him to his death. Just because he's creepy does not mean Ben is purely a villain. And if your 6 points are qualifiers for being evil then lets see which other characters are guilty of the same things Ben is:
1. Identity Theft – Kate, Sawyer. Do I really need to explain it?
2. I did it for…Lust? – Kate, Sawyer, Juliet, Sun, Shannon, Boone. Kate killed some guys to get that little plane, sure it wasn't lust, but it was the same sort of selfishness. Juliet was warned about Goodwin by Harper, did she stop the affair? No. Do I need to talk about the Shannon/Boone pseudo-incest?
3. For my Bday…Soul – Kate, she killed her dad and the Island didn't even demand it! With Ben, it was something the Island wanted. Why else would Alpert say Locke's father needed to die as well? Ben just had the stones to do it himself.
4. I'll play with your mind… – Kate, Sawyer, Locke, Sun, Michael. Ben messed with Sawyer to keep him in line, sounds like a good way to deal with an unruly prisoner, not being a sociopath. Everyone else had pretty selfish motives for their deceptions, except for when Locke mind-warped Boone in S1.
5. Thats right…Coward – Jack, Sun, Kate, pretty much everyone because thats what LOST is all about, characters over-coming their fears, flaws and downfalls. How many characters ran away from some incredibly difficult choice and paid unfortunate conquences? Every main character and not all of them felt the guilt like Ben.
6. Purge your problems… – Ben did not order the Purge. Sure he was complicit, but what Hostile-at-the-time wasn't? In all likelyhood it was Widmore, "Dead is Dead" proved Widmore was the leader WHILE they took over Dharmaville. Ben says "I didn't do it, their leaders did" in Cabin Fever. Who is that baby-killing, Dharma purging leader? Widmore, not Ben.
While I certainly understand the knack for pigeon-holing Ben as a villain, especially since his character is so vague, but you cannot deny that "Dead is Dead" gave us details of his past that showed Ben as a more human, complex,and even vulnerable person. A lot of his actions came from adapting to his circumstances and keeping all his goals in line (for the good of the Island. That's called being smart, not evil.
Great points, every one! However I never said the other characters were pristine. Stop changing the subject. ;) (only the wink is serious)
Who did Jack "murder"? Killing in self-defense is not murder. Of course, enraged with rage Jack did try to kill Ben. It was a "murderous" moment because it was not directly self-defense, but rather was vengeful. It could be looked at as a Bush-moment too, taking off the head of a snake to prevent future actions that would endanger Jack and his loved ones' safety.
What about Hurley? There are many characters on Lost who have not murdered, specially in the way Ben has committed the act.
Jack did try to kill Locke when he put a gun in his face and pulled the trigger…he didn't know that the gun was empty.
And what was his motivation!?!?!
That's the freaking difference between Ben and Jack and all the rest.
Only Locke, of all the other Losties, would kill in cold blood at the BEHEST OF THE ISLAND!!!!
Ben is not acting on the behalf of the Island – that much should be clear for Dead is Dead! Ben is a sociopath acting for his own self-aggrandizement!
Ben did order the purge from my point of view. I think pretty much last night revealed Ben as always used the Island to benefit him and put him in total control of his life (understandable with the death of his mother and the abuse of his father) and lied about what Jacob wanted.
The death of his kidnapped daughter illustrated that perfectly.
In case you missed it.
In fact, the producers said – if I recall correctly – that they inserted the canister into the scene with his father because they wanted it clear that he was involved.
7. Everyone who died when the freighter exploded ("So?")…
Ok, I will admit that Ben is my favorite character and I believe he will come out as a good guy in the end. Now, people seem to forget that Kate, Sawyer, Jack, Michael, Charlie, Sayid, Sun, Mr. Eko, Ana Lucia, Juliet, even Locke are ALL MURDERERS too; however for some reason we can forgive them with no questions asked. Now, I am not saying that Ben has not done some baaaaad things in his life, but I am saying he should get more slack because every character in the show has done baaaaaad things in their lives and at least he has the plausible defense of “the greater good of the island,” otherwise the Monster would have judged him to his death. Just because he’s creepy does not mean Ben is purely a villain. And if your 6 points are qualifiers for being evil then lets see which other characters are guilty of the same things Ben is:
1. Identity Theft – Kate, Sawyer. Do I really need to explain it?
2. I did it for…Lust? – Kate, Sawyer, Juliet, Sun, Shannon, Boone. Kate killed some guys to get that little plane, sure it wasn’t lust, but it was the same sort of selfishness. Juliet was warned about Goodwin by Harper, did she stop the affair? No. Do I need to talk about the Shannon/Boone pseudo-incest?
3. For my Bday…Soul – Kate, she killed her dad and the Island didn’t even demand it! With Ben, it was something the Island wanted. Why else would Alpert say Locke’s father needed to die as well? Ben just had the stones to do it himself.
4. I’ll play with your mind… – Kate, Sawyer, Locke, Sun, Michael. Ben messed with Sawyer to keep him in line, sounds like a good way to deal with an unruly prisoner, not being a sociopath. Everyone else had pretty selfish motives for their deceptions, except for when Locke mind-warped Boone in S1.
5. Thats right…Coward – Jack, Sun, Kate, pretty much everyone because thats what LOST is all about, characters over-coming their fears, flaws and downfalls. How many characters ran away from some incredibly difficult choice and paid unfortunate conquences? Every main character and not all of them felt the guilt like Ben.
6. Purge your problems… – Ben did not order the Purge. Sure he was complicit, but what Hostile-at-the-time wasn’t? In all likelyhood it was Widmore, “Dead is Dead” proved Widmore was the leader WHILE they took over Dharmaville. Ben says “I didn’t do it, their leaders did” in Cabin Fever. Who is that baby-killing, Dharma purging leader? Widmore, not Ben.
While I certainly understand the knack for pigeon-holing Ben as a villain, especially since his character is so vague, but you cannot deny that “Dead is Dead” gave us details of his past that showed Ben as a more human, complex,and even vulnerable person. A lot of his actions came from adapting to his circumstances and keeping all his goals in line (for the good of the Island. That’s called being smart, not evil.
Great points, every one! However I never said the other characters were pristine. Stop changing the subject. ;) (only the wink is serious)
Who did Jack “murder”? Killing in self-defense is not murder. Of course, enraged with rage Jack did try to kill Ben. It was a “murderous” moment because it was not directly self-defense, but rather was vengeful. It could be looked at as a Bush-moment too, taking off the head of a snake to prevent future actions that would endanger Jack and his loved ones’ safety.
What about Hurley? There are many characters on Lost who have not murdered, specially in the way Ben has committed the act.
Jack did try to kill Locke when he put a gun in his face and pulled the trigger…he didn’t know that the gun was empty.
And what was his motivation!?!?!
That’s the freaking difference between Ben and Jack and all the rest.
Only Locke, of all the other Losties, would kill in cold blood at the BEHEST OF THE ISLAND!!!!
Ben is not acting on the behalf of the Island – that much should be clear for Dead is Dead! Ben is a sociopath acting for his own self-aggrandizement!
Ben did order the purge from my point of view. I think pretty much last night revealed Ben as always used the Island to benefit him and put him in total control of his life (understandable with the death of his mother and the abuse of his father) and lied about what Jacob wanted.
The death of his kidnapped daughter illustrated that perfectly.
In case you missed it.
In fact, the producers said – if I recall correctly – that they inserted the canister into the scene with his father because they wanted it clear that he was involved.
7. Everyone who died when the freighter exploded (“So?”)…
All I'm saying is that, according to the subject of your article, Kate and other characters are every bit as "evil" as Ben. At least he has the opportunity to say it's for the greater good.
All I’m saying is that, according to the subject of your article, Kate and other characters are every bit as “evil” as Ben. At least he has the opportunity to say it’s for the greater good.
It bothers me greatly that the Lost creators/writers would save Ben because of his popularity. It is even worse that they would attempt to redeem him of his "sins." I'm thinking that since Egyptian mythology (although in the end I believe the Island will prove to be Atlantis) seems to be a major background for the show's themes I'd do a little search on the aspect of forgiveness within that mythology. I found this:
"Meretseger was a goddess who struck fear into the hearts of the people of Waset, yet she was also a forgiving deity. Sin was not part of the Egyptian mindset – they followed ma'at, and any deviation from this was chaos, rather than sin. Yet Meretseger had the Egyptians naming their wrongdoings, and asking the goddess for forgiveness. This was a very unusual situation in ancient Egypt, the idea of repentance from sin. None of the other protective/vengeful deities had such an unusual impact on the thought pattern of the everyday Egyptian as did this one goddess. She was a goddess who protected and healed those who admitted their sins, and asked for her mercy. Fixed to the peak of one mountain, she watched over the people who worked in the necropolis of Waset. And when nobody worked in the necropolis, there was no longer a need for her protection, and so her worship faded as the people left to bury the dead in other areas of Egypt."
(http://www.thekeep.org/~kunoichi/kunoichi/themestream/meretseger.html)
I suppose this can be used to justify the writers' actions, in their view. But for me, saving Ben has ruined Lost. While I realize the show has had to make several adjustments because of its original inception and through its extension into a long-term series and then again to a shorter run, this is just too much.
Ben was a great villain. And we need villains like him to contrast with our heroes. But this humanist genuflection to the idea that since we are all flawed, we are all comparable to the greatest of villains is just ridiculous.
I'll stick with the show as long as I'm breathing, but for me it's like seeing that wristwatch in The Ten Commandments.
Ben's survival (for now) will always stick out as something not right with Lost.
Hate to break it to you, but moral relitavism and redemption have been a part of this show since the beginning. Even Hurley and the like can be accussed of complacency at the least.
Complacency and cowardice are two different things.
Not arguing the show’s themes of relativism and redemption aren’t there.
I am arguing that Ben is EVIL and was meant to die before the end of this season. The creators are keeping him on because of his popularity with sick, relativistic freaks that want him to continue.
Then there is the possibility that Emerson is as evil and sick and twisted as Ben and has somehow manipulated the creators to continue his character.
That’s the ticket!
Give me a break. killing Ben would have been the stupidest move the writers could have done. Somuch of the story revolves around him. His Character drives the show. And just because he didn’t get the death sentence doesn’t mean he has been forgiven. Smokey or the Island wants Ben to help Locke. That is why he is alive.
No doubt they have used Ben to lengthen the series’ middle. But he was meant to die in the original conception, and the ONLY reason he didn’t die last night is his popularity with…
Tired of saying it I’ve said it so many times.
Ben Bad Bad Ben.
Ben shoots Desmond in cold blood with intent to kill him. Ben is bad. End of story.
Yup.
When Keamy shot Alex, that was in cold blood. Ben, seeking vengeance, is a killer, but not a cold-blooded killer.
Is revenge evil? Opinions differ. We could ask Hamlet.
You so funny. Comparing Ben with another murderer does not make Ben less evil. Circular reasoning.
Ben shoots Desmond in cold blood with intent to kill him. Ben is bad. End of story.
Yup.
When Keamy shot Alex, that was in cold blood. Ben, seeking vengeance, is a killer, but not a cold-blooded killer.
Is revenge evil? Opinions differ. We could ask Hamlet.
You so funny. Comparing Ben with another murderer does not make Ben less evil. Circular reasoning.
I recently wrote a very similar article on my blog about this same thing. Needless to say I came up with a similar conclusion. Please check it out here: http://ncjl.wordpress.com/2009/03/11/good-vs-evil…
– izi
Okay, docarzt. You are a pompous, arrogant fool. I don't see how anyone can say the smokey-induced amnesia was lazy storytelling or convenient. He still remembers his childhood. I mean, he even asked about his dad right when he woke up. The only thing he forgot about was the actual experience of being changed.
Pay attention, docarzt. You just might learn something.
No YOU listen you silly little troll! I specifically said he forgot his transition to otherdom, ie exactly what Richard said would happen, I said NOTHING about him forgetting his child hood. Seems like one of us DEFINITELY needs to pay attention…. ;)
(This outburst brought to you by Purina Trollchow.)
In case there are other ADD-afflicted trolls, here is what the sentence says:
"all the while robbing Ben ever so slightly of the foils of his child-hood transition to the dark side by introducing the convenience of smokey-induced amnesia."
I suppose you forgot that
lol. get 'em!
Okay, docarzt. You are a pompous, arrogant fool. I don’t see how anyone can say the smokey-induced amnesia was lazy storytelling or convenient. He still remembers his childhood. I mean, he even asked about his dad right when he woke up. The only thing he forgot about was the actual experience of being changed.
Pay attention, docarzt. You just might learn something.
No YOU listen you silly little troll! I specifically said he forgot his transition to otherdom, ie exactly what Richard said would happen, I said NOTHING about him forgetting his child hood. Seems like one of us DEFINITELY needs to pay attention…. ;)
(This outburst brought to you by Purina Trollchow.)
In case there are other ADD-afflicted trolls, here is what the sentence says:
“all the while robbing Ben ever so slightly of the foils of his child-hood transition to the dark side by introducing the convenience of smokey-induced amnesia.”
I suppose you forgot that
lol. get ’em!
The way I see it, Ben wasn't exactly changed for bad when he went into the Temple. He lost his 'Innocence' but I don't think that is a bad thing. What is meant by that is he sees the Island and all its secrets and can now understand what other people do not who have never gone to the Temple. John never went to the Temple, but that is why he is so special because he didn't need to lose his innocence in order to have an understanding of the Island. He has it naturally, unlike other people who come to the Island. The Temple saved his life and gave him knowledge of the Island. It didn't change him or make him a bad person. He refused to kill Rousseau once he saw her baby, and he took Alex and told Rousseau to run from the Others' whispers to save her life because she wasn't a threat. He stayed the same as he always was from childhood to adulthood and maintained his morals. Charles Widmore has no respect for innocent or children's life and any time there was a child in question, he always said, "You should have let him die." or "Kill it." I believe Ben was being truthful when he told Widmore he wouldn't be selfish and he would give up anything for the Island. Charles Widmore on the other hand, was banished after probably initiating the Purge through Jacob and ordering it done which is why Ben reluctantly sacrificed everyone with exception to his Father who he killed with no regret what-so-ever. Widmore likely told him that he could only live with them if the Dharma Initiative was gone, and sacrificing tem was his test of truly becoming one of them. This made him a shared leader which was why he could later choose to banishh Widmore for having divided interests off Island and breaking the rules. Ben started out a good leader, but I believe Widmore did everything in his power to gain money and wealth with the specific purpose of getting back at Ben. He found a way to make Ben break the rules and also leave the Island and my guess here is he probably found Annie and did something terrible to her which started the war between them. Widmore wasn't going to let up so Ben had to fight back in the same way. He left the Island with intent to protect it, but after what happened, he became cruel and demanding just like Widmore and instead of going to people off Island, he brought people to the Island by bending the rules and eventually getting the people he brought to become one of them which corrected his rule breaking. So I basically believe that Ben was never a killer, he is made into one because of circumstances. He was always a good person, but he was screwed around with and so he became bitter and murderous too. Ben is made, he isn't natural. Why else would a cruel man like him raise a daughter with so much love and affection? How could he if he is actually a heartless thug? I suppose one could argue the same of Widmore, but his entire life he has never been a sincere person. His young adult hood he was haughty and even killed his friend without a second thought while scoffing at Locke about being an old man. In his early forties, he rode in on his horse like a king and demanded to know why Richard saved a boy by bringing him to the Temple, then goes inside and acts perfectly nice to that same boy while telling him he is one of them. He has constantly tested and resented Ben, and Ben always passed his tests so he had to get nasty and he did. He is the reason Ben is now the way he is, and I'll never believe anything else because it's obvious by looking at each of their paths who is a good person and who was the bad one.
The way I see it, Ben wasn’t exactly changed for bad when he went into the Temple. He lost his ‘Innocence’ but I don’t think that is a bad thing. What is meant by that is he sees the Island and all its secrets and can now understand what other people do not who have never gone to the Temple. John never went to the Temple, but that is why he is so special because he didn’t need to lose his innocence in order to have an understanding of the Island. He has it naturally, unlike other people who come to the Island. The Temple saved his life and gave him knowledge of the Island. It didn’t change him or make him a bad person. He refused to kill Rousseau once he saw her baby, and he took Alex and told Rousseau to run from the Others’ whispers to save her life because she wasn’t a threat. He stayed the same as he always was from childhood to adulthood and maintained his morals. Charles Widmore has no respect for innocent or children’s life and any time there was a child in question, he always said, “You should have let him die.” or “Kill it.” I believe Ben was being truthful when he told Widmore he wouldn’t be selfish and he would give up anything for the Island. Charles Widmore on the other hand, was banished after probably initiating the Purge through Jacob and ordering it done which is why Ben reluctantly sacrificed everyone with exception to his Father who he killed with no regret what-so-ever. Widmore likely told him that he could only live with them if the Dharma Initiative was gone, and sacrificing tem was his test of truly becoming one of them. This made him a shared leader which was why he could later choose to banishh Widmore for having divided interests off Island and breaking the rules. Ben started out a good leader, but I believe Widmore did everything in his power to gain money and wealth with the specific purpose of getting back at Ben. He found a way to make Ben break the rules and also leave the Island and my guess here is he probably found Annie and did something terrible to her which started the war between them. Widmore wasn’t going to let up so Ben had to fight back in the same way. He left the Island with intent to protect it, but after what happened, he became cruel and demanding just like Widmore and instead of going to people off Island, he brought people to the Island by bending the rules and eventually getting the people he brought to become one of them which corrected his rule breaking. So I basically believe that Ben was never a killer, he is made into one because of circumstances. He was always a good person, but he was screwed around with and so he became bitter and murderous too. Ben is made, he isn’t natural. Why else would a cruel man like him raise a daughter with so much love and affection? How could he if he is actually a heartless thug? I suppose one could argue the same of Widmore, but his entire life he has never been a sincere person. His young adult hood he was haughty and even killed his friend without a second thought while scoffing at Locke about being an old man. In his early forties, he rode in on his horse like a king and demanded to know why Richard saved a boy by bringing him to the Temple, then goes inside and acts perfectly nice to that same boy while telling him he is one of them. He has constantly tested and resented Ben, and Ben always passed his tests so he had to get nasty and he did. He is the reason Ben is now the way he is, and I’ll never believe anything else because it’s obvious by looking at each of their paths who is a good person and who was the bad one.
I recently wrote a very similar article on my blog about this same thing. Needless to say I came up with a similar conclusion. Please check it out here: http://ncjl.wordpress.com/2009/03/11/good-vs-evil…
– izi
I still love the guy….
1- Henry Gale didn't need his ID anyway
2- Goodwin cheated on his wife, and Ben and Juilet belong together
3- Daddy wasn't there, to take him to the fair!!!!
4- Dharma was a goofy commune promoting free love and peace and folk music
5- And Smokie already forgave him for the daughter thing…
Ben is the nerd that has the power!!!!
I still love the guy….
1- Henry Gale didn’t need his ID anyway
2- Goodwin cheated on his wife, and Ben and Juilet belong together
3- Daddy wasn’t there, to take him to the fair!!!!
4- Dharma was a goofy commune promoting free love and peace and folk music
5- And Smokie already forgave him for the daughter thing…
Ben is the nerd that has the power!!!!